Due to the recent ban of a wolfballs.com-user for “Bigotry and racism on his main account on Wolfball.” it is requested that Lemmy.ml updates the Code of Conduct to reflect actual moderation. Please consider adding that Lemmy.ml will ban users for comments made with other accounts on other instances.
Everything about Lemmy; bugs, gripes, praises, and advocacy.
For discussion about the lemmy.ml instance, go to !email@example.com.
I think that’s still a valid reason for banning even if it’s not explicitly in the rules. If wolfballs were federated with lemmy.ml, the user’s main account would certainly be banned from this instance, and setting up another account on lemmy.ml would be seen as ban evasion, causing the new account to also be banned. So it makes no sense to not ban their account just because lemmy.ml blocks wolfballs and thus had no opportunity to ban their main account; in fact it makes negative sense because now we’re letting someone use our instance because their behavior was so unacceptable that we blocked their instance.
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Not particularly. It’s literally guilt by association.
They make a good point about defederation not letting us ban them and therefore it shouldn’t be seen as a protection, but that user was federated with us for a long time and wasn’t banned. There were opportunities and the moderation team didn’t choose to. So I don’t think there’s an implicit ban-evasion element on a personal level, they were tolerated and if I remember correctly the defederation was due to antagonistic user interactions between the communities like vote brigading and troll accounts.
I wouldn’t be against the user being banned here for things like shilling and some of their comments here. But defederation and their activities elsewhere have nothing to do with it.
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The ban has been reverted.
Imagine if you will, you decided to have a neighbourhood block party. You say, this is an open and inviting space, and everyone is welcome!
So lots of different people show up, but a few of your guests are uncomfortable. You ask them what’s wrong, you want everyone to feel safe here.
They say, “that guy over there, he’s always saying things like we’re not really people, or we’re sick in the head, or we don’t deserve rights. He threatens us and talks gleefully about the day when we’ll finally be outlawed as degenerates because we’re queer and Black. He and his bigot buddies all talk about the Great Replacement, and how they can’t wait to rise up against the establishment in a war to put Trump back in power.”
And you know this is true. He doesn’t hide it. In fact, he’s mentioned those hangouts at your barbeque, and said that everyone at the barbeque is also welcome to join them for those hangouts.
But instead you say, “Yeah, but he hasn’t said those horrible things here. So you should just chill out, it would be wrong for me to kick him out of this party just because when he’s not at this party he doesn’t believe you’re human. That’s an important part of everyone feeling welcome and safe here. Do you get it? Do you feel safe around him now?”
That’s why someone who comes on here, a Leftist instance, and who has, through their own volition, outed themselves as the bigoted wolfballs admin account, should, in fact, be banned. To do otherwise is to just prop up bigots as long as they know when to “mask on.”
It’s not like you should be hunting for everyone’s other platform activity, but he provided links to that content himself. He promoted that alt-right shithole right here on lemmy.ml. He took his own mask off, and it’s pretty gross not to ban him.
The point is that lemmy.ml rules only apply on this instance. Otherwise we admins would be forced to go through Reddit profiles of all users to search for potential rule violations.
Where do you find any of this? I checked the frontpage of wolfballs just now, and couldnt find a single post about LGBT. So if you want me to take this seriously, you should give some actual examples. Even so, if there are a couple of users with such opinions it doesnt mean the admin shares those views. There are also plenty of users on lemmy.ml which I disagree with.
MasterofBalls in particular has written code for Lemmy, and runs one of the most active instances. For me that means he is a valuable contributor to the project, even if I dont necessarily agree with his political views. Excluding him from project discussions would only harm the project.
Finally, you are not even a lemmy.ml user. If it bothers you so much, ask your own admins to ban the user. lemmy.ml moderation isnt really your concern.
"How do you define a women
A women is defined as x chromosomes and no tallywhacker i.e probably not you"
There’s fucking anti LGBTQ shit right in the goddamn sidebar, please learn to read and realize how gross you are defending this piece of shit. If you read the shit he posts himself it is racist, anti-LGBTQ (he calls literally all queers groomers) and yes, he personally believes in Great Replacement. Like what is wrong with you? Is anyone on Lemmy.ml actually a fucking leftist???
EDIT: And again how is promoting wolfballs on lemmy.ml not a violation of lemm.ml’s rules? are you actually saying it is okay to promote bigoted websites on lemm.ml and you still claim lemmy.ml is anti-bigotry and leftist? like really?
I have removed it because you seem to feel it offends you. No one even asked me to remove it. I also didn’t mean for it to be anti alphabet just to set a light hearted mood. Our site is literally a dick joke. It’s not meant to be taken seriously. And all are welcome including the alphabet.
?. Where are you getting this? My own children are mixed. If I cared about a “replacement” I would not have committed decades to raising mixed kids. If I said anything on the matter maybe I said in some countries one ethnicity is being reduced. I believe in provable numbers not a grand conspiracy.
edit: people telling me this is fake so i’m removing it. It was personal
I’ll try not to comment here to not stir up trouble.
“If you define it as white people being replaced in white nations there’s no denying it’s real”
“I’m not anti-immigration at all just anti-replacement”
“I have two children . . . I’m hoping to get three so at least we get above replacement levels.”
Nope, just your normal not believing in replacement kind of guy says this stuff huh
I would prefer not to get into a argument because like you just demonstrated it’s so easy for things to be taken out of context.
I was mentioning numbers in a argument someone else brought up. If you read more you would have seen that I was arguing against the actual theory as defined by Mr Shapiro. There is always shifting demographics in countries with high levels of immigration.
Very much taken out of context. I am against the intentional destruction of cultures like the nazi’s tried to do to the Jews. Or native Americans in the US. If it happens naturally I don’t care.
This is in regards to world wide population decline not trying to save light skinned people. Like I said my children are mixed so I don’t care.
So as you can see I am neither racist, nor promoting a “replacement theory”.
You are welcome to come by my instance and we can have a bigger discussion on these topics I would prefer to respect the admins here and not fill up comments with stuff like this.
Man, you are like a beacon of red flags.
More like a bunch of red flags with a white circle and some strange interwined crosses…
this you bruh?
“A mudblood is someone who’s blood has been tainted by the experimental covid vaccines. A pure blood is someone who has pure human dna or worded a different way, someone who has never received a covid vaccine.” - wolfballs-dot-com
How is this still up? Obvious troll/ bait!
Thank you for being one of the most sane mods/Admins/devs ive seen in any community for quite some time. Many others would just say ‘fuck you what I say goes’ or just cave to the guilt tripping but the Lemmy devs really seem to have their heads scdewerd on straight.
Thanks for the support!
The developers ability to focus on long term goals for the project is the reason NRSK believes in Lemmy, and tries to support it as a platform in any way possible.
And what if some anarchists here were uncomfortable about you hanging around lemmygrad and insulting them over there? Would it be appropriate for a mod here to ban you because you were associated with a community which has been known to make many leftists here uncomfortable?
The bottom line is you’re still able to create civil, unoffensive and constructive conversation here, despite doing things elsewhere that will make people here uncomfortable.
There are two major differences:
A) lemmy is federated with lemmygrad.
B) what self-respecting “leftist” website lets someone advertise and recruit for a bigoted alt-right forum in their comments>??
EDIT: legit, how is plugging wolfballs in the lemmy.ml comments not a violation of the no bigotry rule? What if people start recommending others join the Proud Boys? Or start hanging out on stormfront?
The reason the wolfballs admin should be banned is, as I said originally, that he on lemmy advertised his bigoted cesspit
What if what if what if
That’s an appropriate way to respond to a comment starting with “Imagine if you will”.
I don’t see the relevance of lemmy.ml being federated. That wouldn’t make it ok. If another community we federate with tolerated a couple of neonazis then that doesn’t make those users ok because we find the platform as a whole tolerable to federate with.
I think you have a valid point with the shilling. I agree with you there. It’s not bigotry in itself but it is abusing this forum to promote anti-egalitarian intolerance (which is undeniably and inevitably what that platform primarily hosts, regardless of its admin’s claims of platform neutrality). Plugging wolfballs is contrary to the stated purpose of this platform, and an unlikely but possible gateway to it gaining dangerous popularity. That is something they are doing here on their account, and I would support the rules being updated to ban it.
The difference is that MLs don’t want to kill anarchists. They just think they’re annoying. With fascists, the death drive is built in and it infects everything they touch.
If I understand your story right, we should proactively ban people because their friends might violate rules in the future? It sounds similar to the story of Minority Report, but that was supposed to be a dystopia, not an inspiration to implement irl.
They’re the wolfballs admin, what’s not to get? Don’t be a lib.
So you ran out of arguments and try to insult me instead?
I don’t need to argue anything. Fuck fascists. If you’re an ML like you’ve stated in the past, you know why and don’t need me to explain to you why fascism is unacceptable and how they leverage liberal discourse to gain footing.
If you enable fascists to speak then what do you even stand for?
I don’t claim to be unbiased. I don’t claim to be fair. Because being unbiased and fair is for people who don’t have to worry about their own survival. LGBT people have already learned this lesson when we’ve been hunted down in the past. You gotta nip this shit in the bud before it takes root.
If you make this place a safe haven for these people, then it’s not safe for me or people like me, and I will treat it like radioactive waste.
This is exactly why non-MLs look at half the commies and shake their heads. If all you scream is “fascist” and literally refuse to explain, then all we gather is “They call people they don’t like fascists”. Then commies get mad the rest of us “can’t see” the proper way.
How does this not counter your first point? If you don’t practice what you believe in when it actually matters, you don’t have beliefs, you have hobbies.
Edit: This thread has gone on for many comments. Read them for a laugh. Basically they never proved the original guy is racist, only got increasingly frustrated. Which is honestly surprising, since I believe the guy is probably a racist PoS, but all I asked for was proof of it.
I have literally linked to where the guy is being racist and seanchai has quoted his homophobic and transphobic remarks. It’s plain as day. I’m calling this shit out because it makes me feel unsafe to be here as a queer person.
Also, how do you not know what a dogwhistle is?
It’s counterproductive to conflate racism, homophobia and transphobia with fascism.
They’re all disgusting behaviors. Make no mistake, they’re all mindless, anti-social, and dangerous. However lumping them into the term fascism trivializes what makes fascism in particular dangerous or appealing to its audience, it falsely suggests that fascism without those traits, a national fascism rather than a racial fascism (which is indeed what some fascists propose) isn’t reprehensible, and makes people who have seen a defintion of fascism think it’s just an ignorant slur just like calling any queer person a liberal, which will make people just not listen.
You don’t have to be one to be the other. They’re all horrible. Don’t pretend their problem is being a fascist; their problem is being a racist anti-queer idiot.
If it looks like a duck, eats like a duck, quacks like a duck, builds an ideological pipeline like a duck…
Congrats on proving both my comments for the second post in a row. Also grats on being queer? Anyways, if you’re so confident you’re right, feel free to actually reply with links of the guy being racist (instead of just saying you did), because the only post I see you doing that has 3 links to… Content not posted by the guy and non-racist content.
A few more since apparently I have to do all the work for you
Congrats, you linked another 10 posts, none of which prove the banned guy was racist. Over half the posts you linked weren’t even from the banned guy. Stop wasting my time, you’re making me think very poorly of commies.
Also, for future reference, one strong point is a lot better than dumping links (or in this case, dumping a link to links to images that weren’t even relevant to the point at hand, which is you are yet to provide any proof Masterofballs is posting racist content).
Defends racists? Check.
Thinks poorly of commies? Check.
Doesn’t bother to investigate a situation before commenting on it? Check.
I dunno guys, I think maybe this person isn’t actually interested in what we have to say. Who could guess.
Doesn’t provide proof? Another check to my first point. You guys are feeding my ego here
Misinterprets my comment? Another check to my first point. You guys are feeding my ego here
Skipped reading my comments? Another check to my first point. You guys are feeding my ego here
You are proposing to change lemmy.ml rules so that users can be banned for activity on other sites. Your only argument for this rule change seems to be the claim that wolfballs.com is fascist. You havent shown any evidence to support this claim, and its far from obvious when browsing the site. So I dont see any justification for such a rule change.
You keep ignoring that he is on here every time someone is about to get banned for bigotry offering a safe space on wolfballs. You let the comment section of your Leftist website be a recruiting grounds for racists and homophobes. And you keep saying “can’t police his activity on another site,” but like…how is posting links and promoting a bigoted website not a violation of lemmy.ml’s rules?
I also recommend wolfballs to people who wont fit in here. I think thats better than having them go back to Reddit, or trying to troll us.
Please send them back to reddit
With all due respect for your work on this platform. Please do not recommend wolfballs to anyone.
So now you say that Masterofballs should be banned because of things that other people say on his instance, and because of posting memes?
How can you possibly look at that site and argue that you don’t “see fascism.” And if you’d like, I can show you all the horrible shit masterofballs personally posts.
You don’t think wolfballs is fascist. You don’t just ban bigots outright, you in fact recommend to them a website where they can get their views affirmed and radicalize farther.
Earlier on you said “leftist” is too vague but you don’t know how else to describe lemmy, but this behaviour makes it abundantly clear that you should describe it as liberal.
Maybe we have a different view what fascism means. For me fascism is calling for physical violence, like murder or genocide. Not posting memes on the internet.
dehumanizing memes that help radicalize people into being more comfortable with eliminating a group of people is literally the entire point of fascist propaganda are you serious?
edit: “I see fascism as actually killing the Jews, that’s entirely unrelated to all of these Jewish caricatures that my buddies have been passing around the Weimar Republic.”
Im really losing track what you are arguing here. If you want to change the site rules of lemmy.ml, you should specifically suggest what the new rule(s) should be, and explain how that would improve the instance. Otherwise there is no point in continuing this discussion.
But to be honest, you are not even registered on this instance, so I dont think you should have any right to influence the rules here.
“Communities mirror the societies in which they exist and positive action is essential to counteract the many forms of inequality and abuses of power that exist in society.”
"4. Unacceptable Behavior The following behaviors are considered harassment and are unacceptable within our community:
Violence, threats of violence or violent language directed against another person. Sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist or otherwise discriminatory jokes and language. Posting or displaying sexually explicit or violent material. Posting or threatening to post other people’s personally identifying information (“doxing”). Personal insults, particularly those related to gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or disability."
"9. Scope We expect all community participants (contributors, paid or otherwise; sponsors; and other guests) to abide by this Code of Conduct in all community venues–online and in-person–as well as in all one-on-one communications pertaining to community business.
This code of conduct and its related procedures also applies to unacceptable behavior occurring outside the scope of community activities when such behavior has the potential to adversely affect the safety and well-being of community members."
As per the Citizen Code of Conduct linked to in Lemmy.ml’s Code of Conduct, maintaining and promoting a bigoted website is a violation, and the scope of the code of conduct extends to unacceptable behaviour occurring outside the scope of community activities
I’m not trying to influence you to change any rules, I’m saying you are not enforcing the rules that currently are in place.
Your comments on this thread are literally violating your rule 4. The irony…
If you promote racist content you get banned, end of story. I literally pointed out a meme that’s racist against black people and latinos. I literally pointed to a thread where they’re disappointed reddit won’t let them call me and people like me a “groomer”. Do you not think the rhetoric will get worse if you let it spread?
Do you think I’m a groomer @firstname.lastname@example.org ? Do you think that I want to sit at the same table as a guy who advertises that he thinks I’m a smoothbrain? I’ve done this song and dance before. If you let wolfballs stay you will invite ruin on this place and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This isn’t about fairness. It’s about survival.
I respected you as a dev, but this is where I draw the line, when you see some stupid ideal as more important than my humanity.
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There you go nutomic, a perfect microcosmic example of what happens when you don’t ban the bigots from your forum. someone feels comfortable just saying queer people are pedophiles, because in this thread they see that debatebro season is open
You forgot the @
Doubt it matters, I’m not registered here so nutomic is physically incapable of reading and understanding what I write
Yeah, if he’s going to allow open transphobia on here, I’m just going to warn queer people to stay away. I don’t want them to get hurt.
How did you even come to that conclusion? Please walk us through your thought process.
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You don’t know how to read
Me 10 months ago. According to your standards, it looks like a couple of my reply guys might be the groomers, given how hard they argued against me. But sure, go ahead and make yourself look like an idiot.
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The context understander has logged on. Imagine living under a rock so long you don’t understand that conservatives call lgbt people ‘groomers’ on the regular.
Also, I’m a girl. Stop calling me “he”.
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Wolfballs maintains a pro Jewish stance. I have been called a friend to the Jews. I kinda consider myself a honorary Jew. Shalom!. In all seriousness Nazis have made huge blog videos explaining how i’m controlled by the Jews and not to use my instance, I’ve banned Australian Nazi’s for posting anti Jewish propaganda all over the site. I’ve made a policy where if a community starts sharing a bunch of jew memes I will mark it as offensive and hide it from users not logged in and subscribed. and I’ve told my instance I will shut down before becoming a nazi instance. I actually lost dozens of users over that. I really don’t know what more you want on the matter. I can’t censor people for offering alternative opinions when they back it up with sources and aren’t being offensive. Thats why they aren’t on reddit.
IMO I think we can all agree big tech is evil and should work towards weakening them and then go back to arguing semantics after they are defeated.
I’m bowing out now. Any future post/comments will be contributions to the lemmy ecosystem if anything at all.
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I don’t think fascism can be described as those behaviors, it’s an ideology.
Those two behaviors you described aren’t in isolation. Can’t a meme be fascist propaganda? Can’t a meme attempt to dehumanize or justify violence without calling for it? Is fascism only dangerous when it reaches the point of open violence?
I don’t agree with the line of reasoning that ‘wolfballs is fascist’, I think that’s ignorant of what fascism is and why non-fascism can also be horrible, but I don’t think the ‘it’s just memes’ argument is helpful.
@Awoo@lemmy.ml can you please explain to this man what a wrecker is? He’s either being naive or is cryptofash himself and I’m running out of patience.
Just for transparency, I was the one who banned them. In my personal opinion, I still think the ban was appropriate, but because someone who outranks me reversed it and has told me their rationale, I’m conceding the issue.
Well, that’s something that needs to be resolved, sooner is better than later, or it will lead to more drama later. Are you using your staff position to enforce personal opinions/preferences, or are you taking the role of a moderator enforcing site rules?
The 4 site rules here (especially #2) seem clear to me that people shouldn’t be banned merely for their supposed personal opinions, or what they do elsewhere.
The latter. I thought the rules were such that they should be banned. How I want the instance to be moderated (i.e. rule changes) is another question and something I’ll take up with the other admins.
I think it could be an opportunity to clarify some of the rules. I’ve made a post on /c/meta about clarification of the term ‘leftist’ for example, because the vagueness can easily lead to reasonable, avoidable conflict.
I agree that “leftist” is too vague, but I also havent heard any better idea how this instance could be described.
Well, how do the admins here define ‘leftist’?
That’s actually a major part of my post. We can’t recommend a better idea without knowing your own definition because ‘leftist’ is just so ambiguous. That’s why it’s a problem. If I know how you define it, I can suggest a few alternatives.
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People like you are why no one even takes the word rascist seriously anymore.
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You have not demonstrated a single racist post. You just keep repeating it as if it makes it more real.
The admin literally stating he wants to create drama. Who’dve thought a wrecker would want to create drama
A literal Stonetoss comic
Hmmmm, let’s talk about black on white homicide
Depicting someone as having two moms is indoctrination, apparently
Racist toward africans
Haha, funny maymay
Nword convo with admin participating
That’s not even everything, that’s just the easy to parse obvious stuff. I need to take a shower.
@email@example.com @firstname.lastname@example.org @AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml
I was going to re-ban them, but luckily they deleted their account. They went with the hitler bunker method I guess.
as per wolfballs own rules (and confirmed literally in this thread by the admin) the racist posts are marked NSFW, unless a community becomes “mostly racist” and then the community is linked in the sidebar
What do you gain by pretending it isn’t racist there? They’re not hiding it.
You forgot hidden btw. He hides the community from other people, censors it.
Sorry could you explain again how it is that you think hiding racist content is racist again?
Your deliberate obfuscation isn’t fooling anyone. If you link racist communities in the fucking sidebar it’s obviously a racist website.
Your conveniently leaving out that he hides it from users not logged in is deliberate obfuscation.
Linking it in the side bar is being transparent about moderation actions.
So he makes it so that only people registered on the racist website get to see the extent of how racist the website is, while continuing to allow racism and promote the racist website, and somehow that isn’t racist?
Wild thought process.
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It is not censored if it is linked in the sidebar… More like “highlighted”!
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Again how is hiding racist content supporting racism?
What do you think he was trying to do by hiding it? Do you call hiding content promotion?
If I tell racist people they can’t post racist flyers on my house, am I a racist?
It is allowing it. Hidden content is still content. It is even worse. It provides a safe space for racists/bigots because it will be hidden from reporting and public scrutiny. The inner circle [of facists] will know where to find it yet it appears “clean” to new users. Also, the constant reference to “balls” is offputting and borderline sexist/misogynist. Obvious bait. Bad troll. Ban them all. Do not provide a platform for this kind of nonsense.
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Are you saying that because Jesus ate with tax collectors he was a tax collector?
Please stop. You are embarassing yourself.
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Alright, getting silly i’m out.
Finally, a smart comment from you!
My recommendation would be to avoid the drama and hassle of inter-instance policing and simply undo that ban.
Next would be banning people for content on entirely different platforms. Say something objectionable on YouTube? Banned!
But I am guessing this must have something to do with managing Federated content. Was his other account getting pulled in somehow through the banned account?
I think that’s the situation Salamander is arguing against. And I support him. But I also support that every instance should be able to moderate and administrate how they see fit - That’s why I, as a user on a different instance, don’t care about the ban itself.
But with the shared nature of federation, quite a few of the communities I interact with are on lemmy.ml. I’d very much like to know the rules so I don’t break them, or if I find that I don’t agree with them - so I can find or create other places to participate, instead of trying to change the fundamentals of already existing communities or instances.
Ten $ of bitcoin to anyone who can show me an actual racist post made by him. I have not seen him say anything racist and he also told Nazis they aren’t welcome on wolfballs. Just an observer.
which user is this about btw?
ah, the wolfballs admin
Not that anyone found an example, but 10$ costs more than a shitcoin transaction fee
Codes of conduct are stupid. AFAIK it wasn’t a very common thing among software projects before a few years ago and they are only supposed to apply to the developers ethics and not the platform as a whole.
Also premetive banning is super shitty and a total reddit move. If they’re as shitty as you say it won’t be long before they’re banned across the federation.
This is just my opinion:
Inssently promoting an instance that is very explicitly against our rules, is also against our rules. It would be way less of an issue and way more a grey area (IMO) if they weren’t constantly plugging Wolfballs as the main admin and was just posting like most other users, but it’s clear that the only purpose of their Lemmy.ml account is to do that (which could also qualify as blogspam BTW but we’ve let that slide a lot for promoting other instances). If an account is constantly promoting an instance as the head admin of that instance, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to take mod actions based on their activity on that instance, because what they’re saying on their account here is essentially that they think their content over there is good, that they endorse it, and want people to keep posting stiff in that vein.
To be clear, it’s okay for an admin on another instance to have an account here, it’s also okay to promote your instance here as long as you don’t cross over into spam territory. But if you do the latter, I don’t think it’s an overstep for us to go over to your instance and check the content you post there, and see if the instance being promoted (indirectly by us as well, since we’re the admins) is consistent with our own rules. This would apply for other platforms, yes. We’re not going to hunt down your YouTube channel and inspect it, but if you promote your YouTube channel and one can immediately find racist/bigoted content there, that is indeed grounds for removal of the post, inssently promoting that channel will get you banned.
There is already precedent for this, mostly related to pornography. Where if you post a site and easily accessible from your link are pornography, especially if what you posted is the homepage, that entire post is considered NSFW and will get removed. Two examples from way back are posts to a fanfiction site and an anime site (not posts to a specific page btw, but advertising the sites in general), and immediately accessible on the sites were tags and links to pages relating to pornography and critically, sexualization of minors. Both were removed as soon as we found out. We didn’t particularly care if the poster agreed with those things or not. They were there, and they’re against our rules.
@email@example.com, @Salamander@mander.xyz, @firstname.lastname@example.org
Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning despite not owing us an explanation. I suppose one of the “cons” of a transparent modlog is that we only get to see the final output without getting the full picture, making it easy to get the wrong impression.
Good! Thank you for the effort. It is important to set a clear boundary and ban users/communities/instances/… if they attempt to cross it.
Are you one of those le CoC = bad people, by any chance?
I think that was pretty obvious from my previous comment.
But the Klingon empire might allow them for a bit longer.
Nah they’d just chop off their heads for disrespecting them.
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